Air Date: October 10, 2025

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China's Climate Pledge


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China has for the first time committed to an absolute target to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, by 7 to 10 percent by 2035, though it is likely to achieve greater reductions. Climate activist Jennifer Morgan previously led Greenpeace International and worked with the German government as a Special Climate Envoy. She joins Host Steve Curwood to discuss China’s growing dominance in the global clean energy transition while the current US administration doubles down on fossil fuels. (11:18)

Balcony Solar


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Compared to traditional rooftop solar, “balcony solar” offers renters, apartment dwellers and folks on a tighter budget a much less expensive solar energy starter kit. Balcony solar is already common in Europe and Asia, and now it’s getting a boost from state legislation in the US. Steve Hegedus, professor of electrical and computer engineering at the University of Delaware, joins Host Paloma Beltran to explain the appeal and how it works. (10:06)

Science Note: Clever Cockatoos use Drinking Fountains


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After observing sulfur-crested cockatoos using a drinking fountain, Australian researchers reported that most of the local population of cockatoos attempted to use the fountains, and around half were successful. Living on Earth’s Don Lyman reports on the research findings and hypotheses for why these clever cockatoos have developed this habit. (01:51)

Jane Goodall On Conservation


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The late conservationist Jane Goodall made it her mission to protect habitat worldwide by empowering local communities to develop sustainably. We reprise her 2023 conversation with Host Steve Curwood about this holistic approach to conservation and how it all started when she was just ten years old and dreamed of studying wild animals in Africa. (14:41)

Remembering Jane Goodall


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Members of the late conservationist Jane Goodall’s Roots and Shoots youth organization and the Living on Earth crew share memories of her and gratitude for her enduring gifts to the world. (07:25)

Show Credits and Funders

Show Transcript

251010 Transcript

HOSTS: Paloma Beltram, Steve Curwood

GUESTS: Jane Goodall, Steven Hegedus, Jennifer Morgan

REPORTERS: Don Lyman

[THEME]

CURWOOD: I’m Steve Curwood.

BELTRAN: And I’m Paloma Beltran

China’s leadership on climate is changing the power balance between developing and developed nations.

MORGAN: They need to be ready to do partnerships that are not extractive. In other words, don't just pull resources out of countries and use them for themselves, but actually create local value in those countries. They need to get quickly in building those types of new partnerships, a new paradigm, I would say, of cooperation.

CURWOOD: And remembering beloved conservationist, Jane Goodall.

KETTERER: Jane came in and immediately looked around at everyone and with that gentle, gracious politeness asked everyone to take off their shoes, cause you know, everyone's in these like stilettos or fancy shoes or dress shoes, but by doing that, it, it brought everyone to the same level.

CURWOOD: That and more, this week on Living on Earth. Stick around!

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[NEWSBREAK MUSIC: Boards Of Canada “Zoetrope” from “In A Beautiful Place Out In The Country” (Warp Records 2000)]

[THEME]

China's Climate Pledge

BELTRAM: From PRX and the Jennifer and Ted Stanley Studios at the University of Massachusetts, Boston, this is Living on Earth. I’m Paloma Beltran.

CURWOOD: And I’m Steve Curwood.

The world order is changing, just like the climate. Back in 1995 in Berlin at the first COP or Conference of the Parties of the UN climate treaty the richest nations including the US, Europe and Japan agreed to go first in reducing global warming emissions. Those rich countries were and still are most responsible for the total of human emitted CO2, and they agreed developing countries like China, India, South Africa and Brazil could keep increasing emissions while they built their economies. And until recently China, which emits the most greenhouse gases today, declined to make firm commitments to cut them. But that has all changed. While US President Donald Trump went to the recent opening of the UN General Assembly to denounce climate disruption as a hoax, China’s President Xi Jinping beamed in to commit his nation to absolute reductions.

[XI JINPING]

CURWOOD: Roughly translating, President Xi said , “Green and low carbon transition is the trend of our time. While some countries are acting against it, the international community should stay focused on the right direction.” President Xi committed to cut at least 7 to 10 percent of emissions by 2035, sequester more carbon in forests and expand electric vehicles. Long time climate activist Jennifer Morgan was in Berlin 30 years ago, has led Greenpeace International, and is a former State Secretary and Special Climate Envoy for Germany. She’s now a senior fellow at Tufts University. Jennifer Morgan, how did you feel about China finally signing on the dotted line?

MORGAN: I had mixed feelings. On the one hand, the fact that President Xi Jinping showed up in a prominent role and announced this at the Climate Summit, I thought was very good, and the fact that you can just see them moving forward. It's definitely a mindset shift for them to be moving to an absolute target with all greenhouse gasses, so that's quite good. But I really think that they missed a chance, he missed a chance, for real leadership, because the number, seven to ten percent, is much below what experts had been saying was needed to keep the 1.5 degree goal within sight, and also what's actually possible, or what's likely to even happen in China. And I had just hoped that he would be more ready to step into the vacuum and really demonstrate significant leadership at this moment.

CURWOOD: What about the Chinese culture, political culture, that any goal you set, you better make it or, you know, it can literally be your head. So they tend to understate, and they have these five year plans. I mean, politically, what kind of box do you think President Xi was in when he was making this announcement?

MORGAN: Well, from the Chinese perspective, I think they've had a time period of reduced economic growth. He has provincial leaders, who are not keen for perhaps some of these measures, because they're able to pump up their provincial economy through more coal and heavy industry. And so I think that there were those factors at play. Certainly, I think they prefer to overachieve. They've always done that, they've done this now. I mean, they were supposed to have 1200 gigawatts of wind and solar by 2030, they met that six years early. They're now at 1680 gigawatts. But I think it was a signal from a Chinese perspective, we are still here, we take this seriously. And not only that, we see it as a core part of our economic growth, but we're not willing to take too many risks.

CURWOOD: So why has it taken so long for China to fully commit? I mean, this is the 30th year of the climate treaty and technically, it's first time they've put absolute targets on the table. Why have they never done this before?

MORGAN: I think China, like other emerging economies or developing countries, you know, one factor is the lack of certainty of what is happening in their economy. They often don't know what the growth rates are going to be. They're starting from a very different point of where developed countries have started. And so there's the uncertainty of that, and not being able to be clear about what emissions are going to happen or not. But also, I think until recently, there was a sense of a choice between economic growth and climate action. And that, I think, until renewables, to build power right now is cheaper with solar and wind than with any fossil fuel, I think there was a sense there was a trade-off there. And I think they also wanted to play it from their domestic, their national perspective. China doesn't want to feel like it's being told by an international community to do something. So it really is very nationally driven, and it's not a country like others, perhaps Europe, or a country like Brazil, where there's more of a play between international expectations putting positive pressure on a country and then the country rising to that. With a country like China, you could also say the United States, it's very much domestic factors and domestic priorities that have driven that.

CURWOOD: Indeed. Now, China's announcement came after President Trump told the UN General Assembly that climate change is, quote, the greatest con job ever perpetrated on the world, and the UN General Assembly has sometimes this one day Climate Summit, and US wasn't even in attendance in that. How do you think President Trump's remarks were perceived by other nations at the summit?

MORGAN: I sensed in watching the summit that there was a sense of in some ways, togetherness, a bit of disbelief and a bit of anger, because small island nations whose very existence is threatened from climate change, many of them were there, and so they reaffirmed that. The President of Chile as well saying, this is not a time to be talking about the science. And I thought it was really striking how many leaders came and how many new nationally determined contributions were announced. So for me, it was almost as if, yes, he said this, some of them ignored it. Most of them didn't even recognize it. They just keep going because they know, they understand the science, they are experiencing these extremely devastating and expensive impacts. And you know, there was a recent Africa Climate Summit. They want to be part of the solution. Many of them are seeing new economic opportunities from the transformation to renewables, from the circular economy, from green hydrogen and steel and all of these things. There's a $2 trillion market out there right now, and the sense that I get is it didn't seem to deter or really have any major impact, except perhaps to get leaders to double down and to say, okay, this is where we need to go right now.

CURWOOD: So there was a summit in early September with India and Russia that President Xi announced his vision for a new global order that prioritizes the Global South. To what extent do you think the Global South's role is changing now regarding climate action and policy? What might that mean for the Global North?

MORGAN: I think this is a great, great and very important question, Steve, because it is changing fundamentally. And I think that developed countries need to realize this. First of all, they have to realize that and understand that China has invested over a long period of time, and they are now making very high quality, affordable, clean EVs, you know, solar, et cetera. So one question is, how does one work with China, although it's very challenging in order to accelerate that pathway to a zero carbon economy. But the other thing, I think, is what I see is much more confidence from countries like like India, like South Africa, like Brazil, of wanting to work together, not necessarily with a country from the Global North, but what kind of trade, investment, decarbonization, agreements can we make amongst ourselves. And also how, and I think going into a COP with Brazil as the host, how they can step in with their realities to set new forms of partnership. I think what it means for developed countries is that developed countries need to get much more specific. They need to be ready to do partnerships that are not extractive, in other words, don't just pull resources out of countries and use them for themselves, but actually create local value in those countries. They need to get quickly in building those types of new partnerships, a new paradigm, I would say, of cooperation.

CURWOOD: And Jennifer, before you go, the world seems to be headed past the 1.5 degrees centigrade average rise that was hoped for back at the time of the Paris Agreement in 2015. What's the reality of how things are adding up? And you might put that in the context of the upcoming climate treaty COP30 in November in Brazil.

MORGAN: Well, I think the one thing for folks to remember, two things. One is in the Paris Agreement, and this has recently been reconfirmed by the International Court of Justice, that 1.5 goal is a legally binding target. And the second is that it has been overreached for a year, and it's very difficult to see how in the short term one can bring it back down. What's important is every single tenth of a degree. So we can't just see it as either or, you know, it's not like, oh, 1.5 is very difficult or won't be achievable in the short term anymore and therefore we give up. And I think that's what many actors who want to keep business as usual are trying to get this kind of sense of despair that's there. So that's kind of a bit of context. And going into COP30 this year, which Brazil is hosting in the Amazon in Belem, it's a different kind of COP this year, Steve, because in a way, you know, Paris is done the rules are all now finished, and there's been good guidance given on transitioning away from fossil fuels. But what really is lacking is the level of implementation that's required. So the world's not on track to triple renewable energy. It needs to do more to get deforestation down to zero by 2030. So it's really a COP where it will require a lot of determination to get that through, but that's what we're looking at this year.

CURWOOD: Jennifer Morgan is a Senior Fellow at the Climate Policy Lab at The Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University, and recently stepped back from the German government as a diplomat for the climate. Jennifer Morgan, thanks so much for taking the time with us today.

MORGAN: Thank you. Good to see you again.

Related links:
- Learn more about Jennifer Morgan
- Watch President Xi’s speech to the UN Climate Summit

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[MUSIC: Zoë Keating, “The Path” on Into The Trees, 020202 Music]

BELTRAN: Coming up, No rooftop for solar? -- no problem! You can start small on your balcony. That’s just ahead on Living on Earth. Stay tuned!

ANNOUNCER: Support for Living on Earth comes from the Waverley Street Foundation, working to cultivate a healing planet with community-led programs for better food, healthy farmlands, and smarter building, energy and businesses.

[CUTAWAY MUSIC: Zoë Keating, “The Path” on Into The Trees, 020202 Music]

Balcony Solar

CURWOOD: It’s Living on Earth, I’m Steve Curwood

BELTRAN: And I’m Paloma Beltran.

Rooftop solar can be a no-brainer for some homeowners looking to decrease their carbon footprint, though tariffs and the repeal of federal tax credits have put up extra barriers in recent months. For renters, apartment dwellers or those of us on a tighter budget, rooftop solar may be out of the question altogether. That’s where something called “balcony solar” comes in. Typical balcony solar units start around 1000 bucks and might only shave off 10 dollars a month from your electric bill. But it’s not just about saving money, and the technology is catching on. It’s been widely adopted across both Europe and Asia. And while US legislation permitting its use has lagged behind, a 2025 Utah law now allows residents to install these small-scale solar systems provided they meet certain safety standards. Vermont and New Hampshire have followed suit and have proposed similar legislation. Steve Hegedus is a professor of electrical and computer engineering at the University of Delaware. He’s also a senior scientist at the Institute of Energy Conversion, and he joins me now. Welcome to Living on Earth, Professor!

HEGEDUS: Hi, thank you Paloma.

BELTRAN: So what is balcony or deck solar, and how is it different from other types of solar energy systems out there?

HEGEDUS: Well, the name balcony solar came from the fact that the original concept was to allow people who lived in apartments who maybe had a balcony with a railing to be able to generate a little bit of their own electricity from solar, even though they didn't have a roof that they owned or that they had access to, and by hanging one or maybe two solar modules off their balcony, they could plug the output of the solar panel after it goes through an inverter right into their outlet in their apartment and be able to use the electricity that they made during the day.

BELTRAN: So, it sounds like this technology is pretty renter friendly?

HEGEDUS: Right, and let's be clear, it's not just, I mean, we call it balcony solar because it sort of conveys what it could be. But a lot of the pictures that I see people are installing this just leaning against the house. Or the companies that sell these sell a little rack that is, you know, basically shaped like a triangle that sits on the ground and holds a module up at a fixed angle. And they can be sitting on the ground near your house. Or onto a porch, you know, if you have a first floor porch in your house, you know, I've seen pictures of people mounting them on that too.

BELTRAN: So let's paint a picture here. What kinds of devices can an average balcony solar system power?

HEGEDUS: Well, when the sun's out. And these things don't have any batteries, so they only produce power when the sun's out. If it's producing 600 or 800 watts, that's about as much as a microwave oven, but more typically, the background sort of base line power in your house which is a lot of what's called phantom loads, things that are plugged in, even though they're you don't think they're on, they have circuits that are active. It would power all of those. It would certainly power a lot of the lights in your homes, especially if you have LED lights, it would certainly power all those. It could power a small fan. It's not going to power like your water heater or your air conditioner, things like that, but it could power, you know, any of your smaller appliances when the sun was out at peak times. My feeling is that there's going to be two types of people or families who go in this direction with this plug in solar. It's going to be people who like the idea of energy independence. Are going to be able to make their own power do it yourself. I don't need to get inspected. I don't have to hire an electrician. So it's gonna appeal to those people who have that American independence kind of streak, and then it's also going to appeal to the people who say, you know, maybe I don't have a sunny roof, or maybe I don't own a roof because I rent an apartment, or for some other reason, I can't afford a big solar array and all of the work that goes along with that. But I can do something for the environment, I can do something to participate in the green energy movement by doing this little bit for myself and offsetting a small amount of my electric bill with green energy.

BELTRAN: And now, what about the grid? You know, how does balcony solar interact with the grid in the United States?

HEGEDUS: Excellent question. And as an electrical engineer who is very concerned about the impact of any energy technology, but especially intermittent technologies like solar on the grid, this has to be done correctly. We want this to solve problems, we don't want it to cause problems. So the solar electricity generated by the solar module, it goes into a device which is mounted on the back of the solar module, called an inverter. All solar systems that are installed have an inverter. It converts the DC electricity, which is like from a battery, into the AC so that you can plug it into the grid, alternating current. It is done at the same voltage as our grid normally operates at and the inverter is designed so that if the grid goes down, if it does not sense a voltage or a frequency, it shuts off for six minutes, and then it senses again. And if there is still no voltage or frequency it stays off. So in other words, this device will not back feed, that's the term back feed power into the grid unless the grid is fully functioning. So your apartment or your house, if the grid goes down, you're not going to be getting any electricity generated from your balcony solar. This is done to protect the electrical utility workers and other devices that are supposed to have certain functions when the grid goes down.

BELTRAN: And how could this type of technology affect utility companies?

HEGEDUS: Well, these things will never produce more electricity than is being consumed on site and so the chances of running power into the grid, like, for example, my solar array that's going to be on my house, any excess power is just put out into the grid, and I would get credit for that on my electric bill, these things are probably not going to be producing enough to do that. So the utilities are not going to have to worry about them creating a lot of backflow of energy on the grid. And if there is, by chance, any small amount, it's just going to be used by your neighbors, the utility will never see a big outflow of this. And also, the other impact on the utility is it's going to reduce your electric bill, and therefore reduce the amount of electricity that they need to sell you. So it'll cause a small revenue loss for them but until this becomes very, very widespread, I don't think it's going to do a lot.

BELTRAN: So we have this new legislation encouraging balcony solar across a few states. To what extent do you think those laws will actually expand this technology's adoption?

HEGEDUS: I think it will expand it in two ways, for one thing, once this legislation passes, there'll probably be some coverage in the news and people will then become aware of it. I think most people probably just aren't even aware of this. The other benefit is that it codifies or specifies that if you want to do this, it has to be done safely using equipment and technology that has passed various testing certifications. So you're not going to have some off spec, poorly manufactured systems being installed. Now, since you don't need an electrician and you don't need inspection to do this, someone could buy a poorly made system that didn't meet the electrical code here, and presumably no one would know about it, but ideally, the legislation will make it clear that you know it's to your benefit and your neighbor's benefit that you buy equipment that's met our legislated minimum requirements in terms of safety and reliability.

BELTRAN: And we have an administration in the US that's really pushing back against green energy in general. To what extent does the emergence of this technology give you some hope for the future of solar?

HEGEDUS: Yeah, that's a really good point, because it's legislated by the states and your listeners, I hope should know that we really don't have a lot of energy policy at the federal level. Most energy policy innovations and barriers are implemented at the state level or even the county or utility level. So what this allows, or what this technology allows, is states can enable it, say that it's, you know, it's legal. And the fact that fairly conservative states like Utah and New Hampshire are already supporting this, I think, speaks to that first type of person who would get this, somebody who wants to have a little bit of energy independence. And the other thing is that, since it's do it yourself, relatively low cost I could see where a lot of people who would have wanted to go with a bigger solar array, but they could only have afforded it with the federal tax incentive, which is now gone, that they'll go this path instead, won't be nearly as satisfying to them, they won't be generating nearly as much electricity or offsetting their bill or offsetting as much carbon, but it's better than nothing.

BELTRAN: Steve Hegedus is a professor of electrical and computer engineering at the University of Delaware. Thank you so much for joining us.

HEGEDUS: Sure, I really enjoyed it.

Related links:
- Read the Utah legislation
- Read more about Dr. Steven Hegedus
- AP News | “Solar Panels That Fit on Your Balcony or Deck Gain Traction in the US”

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[MUSIC: Zedd, John Mayer, “Automatic Yes (feat. John Mayer) on Telos, Interscope Records]

BELTRAN: In a moment, we’ll remember the profound legacy of Jane Goodall, who blazed trails for women scientists and showed us other species were far smarter than we gave them credit for. But first this note on emerging science about some very clever cockatoos from Don Lyman.

[SCIENCE NOTE THEME]

Science Note: Clever Cockatoos use Drinking Fountains

LYMAN: A few years ago, researchers from the Australian National University in Canberra, were studying sulfur-crested cockatoos in an urban environment, when they noticed an unusual and surprising behavior, even for these notoriously intelligent members of the parrot family. They saw the birds using a drinking fountain.
After local park rangers told the scientists that this was a regular behavior for the parrots, the researchers set up cameras in the Charlie Bal Reserve to capture video of the birds’ fountain drinking behavior.

The scientists observed that the cockatoos gripped the fountain with one foot, and twisted the handle with their other foot, releasing flowing water. The thirsty birds then leaned to the side with their body before tilting back to drink.

In their recently published findings, the research team reported that about 70 percent of the local population of cockatoos they studied attempted to use the fountains, and half of them were successful. Lead author Lucy Aplin said that the widespread nature of the fountain drinking behavior suggests that this may be a local cultural tradition among the cockatoos.
Aplin noted the birds congregate at fountains, and patiently wait their turn to get a drink, sometimes waiting as long as 10 minutes to quench their thirst.

The scientists hypothesize that the fountains are a safe, relatively predator-free place to rehydrate, or maybe drinking from a communal fountain promotes social cohesion. “Or maybe the water just tastes better than the contents of a muddy creek.”

That’s this week’s note on emerging science. I’m Don Lyman.

Related link:
Read the study here

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[SCIENCE NOTE THEME]

Jane Goodall On Conservation

CURWOOD: Back in 1960, a 26-year-old English woman followed what many at the time considered a crazy dream. She traveled all the way to Tanzania to study chimpanzees. The young woman was none other than Jane Goodall, who would go on to become perhaps the world’s most famous ethologist and conservationist. Her research showed that these creatures exhibit remarkable behaviors similar to our own. She also became an international voice for conservation through her organizations, The Jane Goodall Institute, and the youth-led Roots and Shoots Program. Jane was a trailblazer, breaking barriers in an era when women were largely unwelcome in the scientific community. In October 2025, at the age of 91, Dr. Goodall passed away, and as we honor her legacy, we’d like to share with you a conversation that we first broadcast in 2023. I started off by asking Jane to explain the inspiration for her “Tacare approach” to community-led conservation.

GOODALL: Well, in 1986, there were a total of six different chimpanzee study sites across Africa. When I began, it was just me. And so with the head of the Chicago Academy of Sciences, we decided it would be really good to bring the scientists from each of these sites together for a four day conference. The main purpose was to see whether chimp behavior differed in relationship to different environments, and if so, how, and was there something like culture, which I maintained, and which turns out to be true. But also we had a session on conservation and it was absolutely shocking because it was clear that right across Africa, chimpanzee numbers were decreasing, and forests were being destroyed. So I went to that conference as a scientist, I left as an activist. And I knew I had to do something, I hadn't a clue what to do, but got some money together, and visited these different sites. But even as I was learning about the problems faced by the chimps, I was learning about the plight of so many African people living in and around chimpanzee habitat, the crippling poverty, the lack of health and education facilities, the degradation of the land, as the human population grew and moved into chimpanzee habitat. And it came to a head when I flew over the tiny Gombe National Park, which had been part of a forest belt right across Africa. And when I looked down in the late 1980s, it was just a little island of forest surrounded by bare hills, more people than the land could support too poor to buy food elsewhere, cutting down trees to make money from timber, or charcoal, or to make more land to grow food for their growing families. And that's when it hit me. If we don't help these people find ways of making a living without destroying the environment, we can't save chimps, forests or anything else. And that was how Tacare began. And then, you know, as the villagers came to trust us, then we could introduce more than just growing more food and better health and education. We could introduce water management programs, scholarships, to give girls a chance to secondary education, microcredit, so that people could start their own small, environmentally sustainable businesses, and family planning.

CURWOOD: So in these 60 plus years, what have you heard from local people near Gombe and Lake Tanganyika about how they feel about their forest and taking care of it.

GOODALL: As we work more and more closely with the local people, and they've learned to record the health of their forests, they really have understood the importance of the forest in their lives, that it helps to regulate temperature, that it provides shade, that it keeps moisture in the ground, regulates rainfall to some extent. And we introduced shade grown coffee that's put in coffee under the trees of the forest. So that really helps biodiversity and provides really good quality coffee. So it has won many prizes on the main coffee market of Tanzania. Five years running. Yeah.

CURWOOD: What's the brand of it by the way?

GOODALL: Well, it's in different countries, it's sold under different names. Gombe Reserve is the typical name in the US.

CURWOOD: So near Gombe, these communities are very remote and fairly traditional societies. How does your approach, how does the Tacare approach help them retain their traditions and cultural identity while allowing them to reap some of the benefits of modern society?

GOODALL: Well, because we respect their traditions, and because, for example, we've managed to persuade the traditional healers, they used to be witch doctors, it used to be you only passed your knowledge from father to son, I don't think ever to a daughter. And so traditions were in danger of dying out. So we managed to persuade them to get together and they agreed to share their knowledge for the benefit of all the local people. And we started trying to grow some of the medicinal herbs. Interestingly, chimps and humans use very much the same plants to cure particular diseases. Who taught who? We don't know.

CURWOOD: What's up common plant for healing that both chimps and humans use there?

GOODALL: Well Aspilia is a certain leaf that they use for tummy upsets, things like that.

CURWOOD: We have a lot to learn from nature.

GOODALL: Yes.

CURWOOD: So, these days, you now have this program for young people you call Roots and Shoots. Tell us about that, I mean, you know, we're not exactly the youngest people in the world, Jane Goodall and myself. So the next generation is going to have to do a whole bunch of things. How does the roots and shoots youth program help develop leaders for the Tacare initiative to go forward?

GOODALL: Well, it began in 1991. All the time, you know, way back in the late 1980s, when I was already traveling around the world, giving lectures, raising awareness, and trying to raise funds as well, of course, I was meeting young people, high school, university, who already were losing hope. And they were either depressed, angry, or mostly just apathetic. And they told me when I asked, and this is all around the world really, "well, you've compromised our future, there's nothing we can do about it." Well, we have compromised their future, in fact we've been stealing it, we still are. But it's not true, there is something they can do about it, that there's a window of time, if we get together, we can start to heal some of the scars we've inflicted on poor old planet Earth, slow down climate change, slow down loss of biodiversity, these two existential threats that we face. So the young people, they form groups, and in that group, they discuss what they care about in their environment. Some of them care about people, poverty, homelessness, some of them care about animals, protection in the wild, conditions in captivity, some of them care about the environment, you know, looking after, protecting forests, growing organic food, having butterfly gardens. And so then they discuss what they can do, roll up their sleeves, get out there and do it. And what began with 12 high school students in Tanzania, is now in 68 countries around the world, members from kindergarten through university, even adults now forming groups, and they are changing the world. I talked about the bare hills, around Gombe back in the late 80s. Those bare hills aren't there anymore, the trees are coming back from seeds left in the ground, or from big tree planting operations conducted by Roots and Shoots for the main part. And with the trees coming back, so biodiversity comes back. And the one thing that they seem to keep with them, they have this respect, respect and compassion, respect for each other and the animals and the environment. And they're caring. So we're producing, yes, we are producing leaders of the next generation. But even more important, I think, we're producing caring and compassionate citizens, because not everybody is going to be a leader.

[MUSIC: Hania Rani, “Glass” on Esja, Gondwana Records]

CURWOOD: We’ll be back in a moment with more from Jane Goodall as well as remembrances from some of the people she impacted the most.

BELTRAN: That’s coming up on Living on Earth. Stay with us!

ANNOUNCER: Support for Living on Earth comes from the estate of Rosamund Stone Zander - celebrated painter, environmentalist, and author of The Art of Possibility – who inspired others to see the profound interconnectedness of all living things, and to act with courage and creativity on behalf of our planet. Support also comes from Sailors for the Sea and Oceana. Helping boaters race clean, sail green and protect the seas they love. More information @sailorsforthesea.org.

[CUTAWAY MUSIC: Hania Rani, “Glass” on Esja, Gondwana Records]

BELTRAN: It’s Living on Earth, I’m Paloma Beltran.

CURWOOD: And I’m Steve Curwood.

Today we’re remembering Jane Goodall, who passed away this October at the age of 91. Let’s get back to the conversation I had with her in 2023.

CURWOOD: So, I recall the story of a young Jane Goodall who went to this part of Tanzania, and was, you know, they acted like they thought you were crazy. To what extent do people who do this work have to be rebels do they have to say, no, no, no, no, no, we can't do it the old way, we have to do it a better new way?

GOODALL: Well, I was 10 years old, when I met this opposition to my dream of going to Africa, living with wild animals and writing books about them. Jane, dream about something you can achieve, how will you get to Africa, you don't have money, Africa's far away, it's dangerous, it's the dark continent full of dangerous animals and people. And I was just a girl. And it was my mother who said, Jane, if you really want to do this, you're going to have to work really hard, take advantage of every opportunity and, if you don't give up, hopefully, you'll find a way. So my mother supported me. And my family actually, it was everybody else who didn't. And then once I got there, I met Louis Leakey and he gave me this amazing opportunity to live with not just any animal, but the one closest to us, the chimpanzee. Then, you know, there was money only for six months. I mean, who was going to give money? Young girl, hadn't been to college, straight out from England. And I was really afraid that I wouldn't find out anything really useful and my dream would end because the chimps ran away from me to start with and then this one chimpanzee, male, David Greybeard, gentle disposition, very handsome, probably about 25 years old, for some reason, he began to lose his fear of me before the others. It was he whom I saw using and making tools to fish for termites, which was supposed to be unique to us, we were the only tool-using, tool-making animal. And it was that that brought in the National Geographic Society. And then I could stay on. And the local people, when I first arrived, they thought, "oh, Jane will last, maybe one or two weeks, and then she'll go," but of course, they were wrong. I didn't feel I was rebelling. But I think what's needed for people doing something like this is passion, you need to be absolutely passionate about it, and then determined that you're going to succeed and know that you're on the right path.

CURWOOD: Jane Goodall’s determination helped pave the way for other young women to become scientists and blaze trails of their own. As we wrapped up our conversation in 2023, I asked her how much the world of science had changed for women since she started her work.

GOODALL: Science has changed for women hugely since I was young, because, you know, when I was dreaming of Africa and animals, I didn't dream of being a scientist, because girls simply didn't do that sort of thing. And gradually, it's changed. And gradually, more and more women are coming into science. I think one problem at one time was that science, it was very cold. The early ethologists, those studying animal behavior, were extremely reductionist. For example, I was told you shouldn't have named the chimpanzees, they should have had numbers, that's scientific, you cannot talk about their personalities, their minds, or their emotions, those are unique to us. You cannot be showing empathy for your subjects. To be a good scientist, you must be objective, coldly objective. And of course, anybody who's shared their life with a dog, a cat, a rabbit, a horse, I don't care what animal, knows that that's wrong. And I'm sure those early scientists didn't really believe it, but they couldn't prove it. And it was the chimpanzees that really broke that model. Because once the film shot by my husband, Hugo van Lawick, began going around the world, then you could see with your own eyes, of course chimpanzees have many of the emotions we have, and the postures and the gestures that we have. And so gradually, now, we're studying the emotions and the incredible intelligence of, for example, the octopus, you know, "My Octopus Teacher." Octopuses are amazingly intelligent. Crows. Crows can solve some problems faster than an eight year old human child, unless they're a genius child. So I think that women were put off by this coldness, to some extent, but now it's got warmer. And I think that's encouraging a lot of girls to go into science. And I have to say it that hundreds have said to me, "Jane, it was after I heard your lecture or saw your film, that I decided this was what I was going to do. Because you did it, I can do it too." Whatever it is, just if they had a dream, not to listen to people who said you can't do that. But to follow it, just as I followed mine.

Related link:
Learn more about the Jane Goodall Institute

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[MUSIC: Zoë Keating, “Optimist” on Into The Trees, 020202 Music]

Remembering Jane Goodall

BELTRAN: Jane Goodall inspired so many people across generations, and we’d like to share some of their memories of her with you now. We’ll start with our own Explorer-in-Residence, Mark Seth Lender.

LENDER: In 1960 when Jane Goodall was only 26 years old, she saw a chimpanzee, David Graybeard, using and later making tools. And then she went on to show the chimpanzees had emotions and an inner life and relationships just like us. And in doing that, she broke down the wall. We had been laboring under the misconception since Aristotle that we were somehow fundamentally, you know, superior and different. And she showed that we and the animals are very much the same, and this extends to other species, and that’s what my work has been about. And I wouldn’t have been able to do it. I wouldn’t have been able to stand up to the critique, if not for her. I will, I will miss her. I will miss her for the rest of my life.

CURWOOD: Through her youth organization Roots and Shoots, Jane made an impact on many young people during some of the most formative moments of their lives.

BELTRAN: Cash Daniels is a sixteen-year-old from Tennessee who’s been involved in Roots and Shoots for the past year.

DANIELS: I think the world should remember her by the good work that she did, not just conservation, but spreading kindness, and all that, I think in the world that we live in, that is definitely something that we need a whole lot more of.

CURWOOD: 26-year-old Stewart Massey participated in Roots and Shoots for 4 years and is now interning with a wildlife center in Wisconsin. His admiration goes way back.

MASSEY: When I was little, I listened to Jane Goodall tapes on repeat. I had a little recorder that I carried around everywhere with me. Listen to it for hours on end. I knew exactly the names of every Chimp, just from the noise that it made. I knew how they were all related to each other, like I knew everything. And I was obsessed with this thing. So, Jane Goodall has kind of been with me since I was, I mean, a little bitty kid.

BELTRAN: The young people we talked to said Jane was larger than life yet generously shared her time with each person she met. Oona Spaeth is a freshman at Columbia University who has been involved in Roots and Shoots for more than five years.

SPAETH: Even though, like, she had just given this whole talk, and she must have been so tired, she could have just like said hi, taken the picture and left, she took the time to shake all of our hands and to learn our names and speak to us, you know, she actually cared about connecting with us.

BELTRAN: Jane Goodall led the way for young women in particular. Jessie Wahlers is a 22-year-old recent graduate from the University of Tampa with a degree in Marine Science and Biology, and she says Jane is everywhere in her field work.

WAHLERS: “Like, I'm in the mangrove forest, collecting crabs, studying crabs, so I'd be lying if I didn't say that there'd be sometimes, I'm like, Oh my God. I'm just like Jane!

CURWOOD: The young people Jane Goodall made an impact on include our former Living on Earth intern, Anne Flaherty.

FLAHERTY: Being part of Roots and Shoots taught me that even as a young person, I had the ability to make a difference in some way. And I think that autonomy and that confidence that Roots and Shoots and the staff at the Jane Goodall Institute instilled in me was so important because I carried on that even small actions make a change.

CURWOOD: And Anne credits Jane Goodall with helping her find her path. Currently she works at a farm that helps enrich the lives of people with disabilities.

FLAHERTY: I'm also in graduate school for social work, and I hope to become a therapist someday. And one of the things I hope to do as a therapist is help young people cope with climate anxiety and depression in our changing environment. And I really have to thank Jane for inspiring me to pursue a helping profession. I think she'll always remain an inspiration for me in my life.

CURWOOD: Last but not least, Amanda Ketterer met Jane Goodall as an 8-year-old, and she shared one memory in particular from a Jane Goodall Institute fundraiser with major donors when she was 14.

KETTERER: Jane came in and immediately looked around at everyone, and very again, with that gentle, gracious politeness, asked everyone to take off their shoes. So, we were all on the same level. Because, you know, everyone's in these, like stilettos or fancy shoes or dress shoes. Everyone, really, you know, pulled up in their best for this event. But by doing that, it brought everyone down. I mean, physically, of course, like because if you took your heels off, but it brought everyone to the same level. And everybody was on the same page. We're all just people, feet on ground and almost like a very grounding exercise. And she did it in like a very silly, polite way. But it really, it actually completely changed the energy in the room and made everyone feel a lot more comfortable interacting with one another.

CURWOOD: Virtually everyone we spoke to mentioned that Jane Goodall had a wonderful sense of humor and was a bit of a “prankster”! Amanda shared one such memory from a Roots and Shoots conference held at Windsor Castle in the UK.

KETTERER: One morning, Jane came down with a pitcher of ice water, and she just slowly started walking around the room, and she was pouring water on people's heads just to be, and she was like, good morning. It's time to wake up. This is your wake-up call! Just a little bit – nothing too crazy. And the last morning we were there, we all came down in shower caps. So, she couldn't, she couldn't get us.

CURWOOD: And when Amanda faced some of the hardest moments of her life, Jane Goodall was there, with deep kindness and care.

KETTERER: She was the first person who called when my dad passed. The icon was incredible and will continue to be an incredible legacy. The person also is someone who, sorry, we will deeply miss, sorry.

CURWOOD: Amanda remained close friends with Jane until the end.

KETTERER: I had the most incredible conversations with her about grief and loss and and love and something that I carry now it's been almost 10 years since I lost my dad, But how something she said was, how lucky are we to miss people we loved so dearly, which I now have been saying every day. I've been saying that every day since Jane has passed.

CURWOOD: There will never be another Jane Goodall, and perhaps the best way to describe her is as a gift. Her brilliant determination and generosity of love gave the Living on Earth audience and production crew much encouragement and joy that is so needed in this realm of journalism, and because of her, the world will never be the same. We and the countless other people she inspired can only say thank you as her legacy lights the way forward.

Related links:
- Learn more about the Jane Goodall Institute
- Learn more about the Roots and Shoots program

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[MUSIC: Zoë Keating, “Optimist” on Into The Trees, 020202 Music]

BELTRAN: Next time on Living on Earth, How the Chicago River went from filthy to swimmable and was celebrated on one glorious day this fall.

FRISBIE: You know, it was a magical day that's hard to describe. Seeing hundreds of people in the water, swimming so joyfully, really represented all the work that Friends of the Chicago River and so many agencies and organizations have done to improve the health of the river, not only for people but for wildlife too. The morning of the swim, people were beyond thrilled. People were watching from the bridges, they were watching from the riverwalk. We had incredible media, there was 3 billion media hits so literally the whole entire world saw this happen. And for Chicago what it represents, for people who have lived here a long time, I think it’s a game-changer. Seeing people in the water makes you believe that it’s possible. And because we have this reputation of being polluted, it’s hard to penetrate and get those positive messages out there, and so this is emblematic, literally, of how clean the river is.

BELTRAN: That's next time on Living on Earth.

[MUSIC: Zoë Keating, “Optimist” on Into The Trees, 020202 Music]

CURWOOD: Living on Earth is produced by the World Media Foundation. Our crew includes Naomi Arenberg, Sophie Bokor, Jenni Doering, Daniela Faree-ah, Swayam Gagneja, Mark Kausch, Mark Seth Lender, Don Lyman, Ashanti Mclean, Nana Mohammed, Aynsley O’Neill, Sophia Pandelidis, Jade Poli, Jake Rego, Andrew Skerritt, Bella Smith, Melba Torres, and El Wilson.

BELTRAN: Tom Tiger engineered our show. Alison Lirish Dean composed our themes. You can hear us anytime at L-O-E dot org, Apple Podcasts and YouTube Music, and like us please, on our Facebook page, Living on Earth. Find us on Instagram at living on earth radio, and we always welcome your feedback at comments at loe.org. I’m Paloma Beltran.

CURWOOD: And I’m Steve Curwood. Thanks for listening!

ANNOUNCER: Funding for Living on Earth comes from you, our listeners, and from the University of Massachusetts, Boston, in association with its School for the Environment, developing the next generation of environmental leaders. And from the Grantham Foundation for the protection of the environment, supporting strategic communications and collaboration in solving the world’s most pressing environmental problems.

ANNOUNCER 2: PRX.